One Breath at a Time with John DeDakis -E439

What happens when a journalist who spent decades telling other people's stories suddenly finds himself living the story he never wanted?

In this deeply thoughtful conversation, Bruce Barker and Kristin Glenn welcome author, journalist, writing coach, and bereaved father John DeDakis. Together, they explore the life and legacy of John's son, Stephen, the realities of grief after child loss, and the lessons John has learned through years of writing, speaking, and walking alongside other grieving parents.

The conversation moves from fathers and grief to the power of storytelling, the healing found in authentic connection, and the role of community through organizations like The Compassionate Friends and Bereaved Parents of the USA. John shares honest reflections about masculinity, vulnerability, fear, hope, and why he believes that "hope has to be practical."

Most of all, this episode is a reminder that while grief changes us forever, it can also deepen our capacity for empathy, meaning, and connection.

Whether you are newly bereaved, many years into your journey, or walking beside someone who is grieving, we hope this conversation helps you feel seen, understood, and a little less alone.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Welcome to Don't Forget to Breathe. I'm Bruce Barker here with my co-host, Kristen Glenn. Today, we're honored to be joined by someone whose life has been shaped by both storytelling and loss. John Dedakis spent more than two decades as a journalist with CNN, helping bring stories from around the world into people's homes. He's an award-winning novelist, writing coach, manuscript editor, speaker, certified grief educator, and someone who has dedicated much of his life to helping others find the courage to

Welcome And John’s Story

SPEAKER_00 0:45

tell their own stories. John is the author of six mystery suspense thriller novels, the Lark Chadwick Mystery Series. A former White House correspondent, John regularly leads writing workshops at literacy centers and writers' conferences. He is also the host of a video podcast one-to-one with John Dadakis on YouTube, Facebook, and LinkedIn. But like many of us listening today, John's most important story isn't one he covered as a journalist. It's the story of his son and the grief journey that followed his death. Today, we're not here to interview an author or a journalist. We're here to sit down with a fellow father, a fellow bereaved parent, and have an honest conversation about love, loss, storytelling, meaning, and what happens when life changes forever. John, welcome to Don't Forget to Breathe. We are so grateful that you're here.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Thank you, Peace. And uh Kristen, it's good to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

We're honored. You know, John, before we talk about grief, writing, coaching, conferences, or any of the work you've done over the years, we'd love to start where every parent wants to start, and that's with our child. You know, one thing we've learned in this podcast is that children are often introduced through the lens of how they died when we really want to know how they lived. So before we go anywhere else, could you tell us about your son, Steven?

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Sure. Stephen was uh 22 when he died, and uh he was a uh cook at a high-end

Who Steven Was In Life

SPEAKER_01 2:25

restaurant in the DC area, really a multi-talented guy, had a very outgoing, effervescent personality, uh, made friends easily, was curious about the world around him. He was very musical, taught himself how to play drums, taught himself how to play guitar, uh, was in several bands. Um when he was uh a food runner at uh this restaurant in uh in Bethesda, Maryland, he was very intrigued by all of the stuff that was going on in the kitchen. And so he went to the the chef and he said, Teach me how to cook. And so they uh they they mentored him, and uh, and so he became an he wasn't going to become a chef. He it's it's a very high-powered, uh confusing, uh hot situation, but uh, and you really need to have a great memory under the gun to be able to handle all the orders that come flying in. And uh, and so he basically learned how to be a cook. Um he was funny, he had uh uh an uncanny ability to be able to mimic any accent, any accent. I love that, and then just make stuff up in that accent, and he was he was hilarious, and so it's easy for me to continue to always think of him, and when I do, I laugh, I smile. He was just an engaging person, and I'll just hear it. And I'll say one more thing because um uh after he died, um and I don't know, I'm this this I don't talk about this a whole lot, so we'll see how this goes. But uh, you know, obviously we had a cell phone and uh we were able to tap into it. And um, you know, there were there were a lot of texts that he had with his friends, and um he it was clear to me, and this was confirmed by the the texts and the conversations that I had with some of his female friends after he died, that he treated women with respect. You know, he was, you know, guys, especially at that age, or at least maybe I'm projecting my own, you know, youthfulness into the into the picture here. But, you know, when I was his age, you know, women were sexual conquests. You know, he wasn't like that. I mean, he was a normal guy, but he had he cultivated friendship. And uh, and and women would tell me he treated me like a gentleman. And um that's I think lost these days, but it was gratifying to know that uh he he was taking a lot of the lessons that Cindy and I were trying to teach him about women. Uh uh because I mean I write as a woman and I know how difficult it is to be a woman. I mean, a lot of what it means to be a woman is playing defense. And you know, Steven was not the kind of guy that would put a woman on the defensive and make her feel unsafe.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

That's beautiful to hear. And and I echo what you said. I was the same way. And I think and my friends, and I mean, uh, you know, remembering back of that far, uh, it was certainly not how I grew into being a gentleman and being more mature and and how to treat women. And that's a beautiful thing to hear about Stephen at that age. That's you know, that's beautiful. Thank you. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

As a woman, we need more men like that in the world. Yay, Stephen. And yay, both of you, as you've evolved.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

So, John, what parts of Stephen are still present in your life today?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

His his humor. There was a certain peacefulness that he had. Um, I f I f I sense his presence. I I thought it's hard to put into words a lot of those things because Cindy and I will still repeat words and phrases that he would use that were uniquely him. And uh, and and so a lot of him is just embedded in us, in our psyches,

Sensing Presence After Loss

SPEAKER_01 6:51

I think.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Yeah. I can hear, I can hear my daughter Kristen. I know we have Kristen's on here, but my daughter Kristen, I can hear her voice in my head saying little things like that. Like, I can say this, but and it won't mean anything to you guys, but I hear it in her voice where it's like, oh daddy, and I can hear it.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

And and I find myself in situations where I I that's what she would say, and then I hear that voice, and it's it used to be troubling, but now it's comforting.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Right. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

So I know that my relationship with her has changed over the years um since she died. Has your relationship with Steven changed over the years since his death?

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Never really thought about that. I think we tend to romanticize uh the situation. We we try not to remember the hard parts. Yeah. And uh and so what we're left with are the good memories, or at least I think that that is a saving grace. You know, not everyone has that luxury, I guess, but uh it's hard to it's hard to think of it in terms of relationship because uh well here here's one possible relationship, and that is that um he would be 36 now, and I find that every now and then I have a really good conversation with someone who's 36, and it's not something I seek out, but um I look back on it and I go, oh man, that was interesting. And and it's also a relationship or a conversation that I'm having with someone who is in recovery from some sort of addiction. And that's a conversation I never was able to have with Stephen because uh uh he died before he was able to really get help. Uh we we had a heart-to-heart about his heroin addiction, and uh, and I know he was working on on getting uh getting clean, but um, you know, he hadn't really, you know, gotten through that yet. And so it always means a lot to me when I'm able to have a conversation with someone who has faced their demons and done the work to get beyond it and then be in and I and get and then be in a position to help other people because I think he would have been that person. So I suppose uh if I could answer that question, it would be probably the the way that relationship goes on is when I have those conversations with people who are in recovery, often people who are the age he would be now. Wow, that's powerful. That's almost spooky, I think.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Yeah, it's it's um synchronicity or something. I don't know. Yeah. You know, Bruce and I often talk about what we imagined grief and even the loss of a child to be before it became our reality. And then certainly when our own grief arrived, it was nothing like we imagined. As you look back on your own journey, you know what stands out for you now that you in hindsight thought would be different than than how you actually have gone through the grief surrounding your son's loss.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

I've had

Crying And Letting Pain Be Real

SPEAKER_01 10:26

grief experiences before, and because I was a reporter for so long, that you know, the the professionalism that goes into being a reporter is that you compartmentalize. Um, you have to put your emotions aside in order to do the job because you're not the story. And so I think that some of those, some of that discipline, that emotional discipline helped a little bit, but it can also be an impediment because then you don't really allow yourself to go there and you can, you know, become so detached that it's not real. Well, when you know your kid dies, that that's hard to put aside. And uh and I think that probably the probably the thing that happened um that was the breakthrough was being able to cry and and to be able to cry unashamedly. I think that, and I don't want to make a generalization, I think women get it. You know, crying is an emotional safety valve, and that that's something that they that's that's easier, I think, for for many women than it is for guys. We tend to hold it in and we tend to be strong and all that kind of stuff, which is which is a bunch of it's a load of shit, quite frankly, uh, because you're not really dealing with it, it's just becoming you know internalized and and and it's corrosive and it festers uh to the point where if you think about it, most of the mass shooters are guys. And my hunch is that what ends up happening in those extreme cases is that the grief and loss and pain and tears become bullets. And uh, you know, the grief isn't resolved, it's just manifesting itself in a really twisted way. Uh, and so the breakthrough was being able to emote and to allow myself to move toward the pain and feel it, sit with it, be with it, and allow it to uh sit just to sit with it. And um, you know, there comes a point where you're able to go to the next step and the next and and then re-enter society as a as a different person, a changed person. The grief never goes away completely, but um, you know, it I'm redefined by what has happened in a way that allows me, I think, to be more empathetic, you know, to people, to other people who are having the same experience.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Oh, absolutely. And I think you, you know, you stated it so well, it doesn't go away. It's not something that, as maybe we thought before we went through our own journeys, there was closure or any of those words. That's not a good word, yeah. Not a good word. Bruce and I have even had conversations about the word healed. And you know, my my stance on that is that that is a that's an action verb. I am healing, but yeah, I am not I'm not going to say healed. I'm not. So I I think you said that so well of like that sense of carrying it. What was it like for you to discover that you are going to carry this with you? This is part of the jawn now that exists on this planet.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

I think that the acceptance of that came with the experience of it. Um, because for the longest time, you know, months and months, life was a blur and a blah. You know, it just wasn't fun. And then I was just kind of trudging through the days. Right. Um, but um, and I agree, time doesn't heal, but we are what we bring to it, the work we do helps to heal. And I like what you're saying. It's it's an ongoing, it's a healing. I'm certainly different now. Uh, and I guess that it's just recognizing that I'm able to be, I hate to use the word normal, but I mean I do feel normal again. Um, there you know, there, as you both know, for the longest time, it's like, how can people laugh? How can people even enjoy life when you know life has stopped? And uh, and and and I guess it's that that moment where you realize that, well, there are things that are funny and that it's okay to laugh, and that's not a betrayal. It's just that life does go on. And uh and it and and being able to continue to move forward. I don't like the word move on, right? You know, I move forward, I'm a different person, but I'm moving forward and making meaning out of this thing, finding meaning and purpose in life now that things have changed.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Kessler would be so proud of you.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Well, yeah, yeah, I've got his book right here, Finding Meaning. The stage of grief.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Yeah, absolutely. He would he'd be so proud that you're part of his team.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

You know, speaking of that, many grieving parents wrestle with that tension that few outside understand. And we desperately miss our children. Yet life continues and it continues to bring us moments of beauty. Sometimes those moments feel welcome, and sometimes it's confusing, and sometimes even guilt. You know, and and Kristen and I have talked about this uh as a subject of a previous episode, where parents ask themselves whether they're allowed to laugh again or dream again or fully even engage in life again. Can you tell us more about that? What part of that journey is the same for you? And do you still hold sorrow and gratitude? Can you do that? Hold that at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Oh, sure. Absolutely. There's a lot in that question. There is there's something that that's interesting. I just wrote a memoir that's going to be coming out at the end of the summer of uh 2026. And in writing it, and it took me several years to write, and I went back and looked at my journals when I was when I was doing it. And one of the things I discovered is that there's a in fact, I think I have it here. Yes, I do. Um, my wife and I, when Emily was visiting us right in the days right after Stephen died, and we were cleaning out Stephen's room, which was excavating, is probably a better word. And uh I came across a notebook

Humor And Joy With Sorrow

SPEAKER_01 16:51

that had blooper newspaper headlines. And I was reading this to Cindy, and she's laughing hysterically. And Emily took a couple of pictures, and I'm actually using one in my my memoir, but just to give you an example, uh, these are head, these are real headlines in newspapers. County to pay $250,000 to advertise lack of funds. Or uh let's see, one armed man applauds the kindness of strangers. Legislator wants tougher death penalty. I mean, you know, yeah, you have to think, you have to think a minute about these. Panda mating fails, veterinarian takes over. You get the idea. Yeah, and uh and and Cindy's just howling. And you know, and Steven died just you know, a few a few days earlier. And I think it's important to be able to uh define humor and irony in life. Um so yeah, I don't know. I I'll stop there. Is there any is there maybe I'm not answering your question.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

No, you're you're absolutely answering the question.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

And I mean, you know, I mean, and here's the thing Steven had a tremendous sense of humor. He would have loved those. And I mean, what you know, why do we want to be, why do we feel that it's honoring them to be, you know, dour when they weren't?

SPEAKER_02 18:25

Then that's the legacy is that we our lives have become dismal. And that feels like a double sadness to me. Yeah. Yeah. More like a a new layer of tragedy when now the ripple effect of other lives becoming incredibly sad forever. Certainly there's an ongoing sorrow, just like Bruce said, a combination of joy and sorrow. But to be able to laugh and, you know, to laugh with other bereaved parents has a new depth for me.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

They're my favorite humans. And and I don't think like, you know, going through this tragedy all of a sudden makes us great people. We just become more of who we are. Like there's some real jerks that are bereaved parents.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Um, I mean, I think I think I can put my finger on what you're talking about, and that is that we in our, you know, human beings are masters of superficiality. You know, we can get through life with hi, how are you? How about them braves, you know, and you know, hot enough for you. You know, we can skip across the surface. You know, once you've really dealt with mortality, your own, your kids, there's a depth there, there's a capacity for depth there. And I consider it a good day if I've had at least one in-depth existential conversation with someone about stuff that really matters. And it's and it's the bereaved uh who have been dealing with those kinds of things. And so those are the conversations that are meaningful and resonant because they're talking about real stuff, not not cliches.

unknown 20:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

That is so beautifully said. I'm gonna re-listen to that part of what you just said, I think several times, because I think that capacity, the capacity for depth that you just mentioned is what makes this this work that we do so darn meaningful. And you know, you can drop into such a conversation with someone that's in this quote quote club that none of us would ever have imagined or signed up for, but that gosh, here we are. And to to go to that I'm I'm so looking forward to going to the Compassionate Friends Conference coming up because I just feel like in a brief period of time I know from past experiences how deep and meaningful conversations can be with my fellow bereaved. So for you to put it in those words, it does it it really captures what I think about this this community of our our shared community often. Um yeah, it does they do feel different.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Would you say this is this is one thing I'm a little nervous about. I'm gonna be uh leading a writing workshop on using writing as a way to heal at the upcoming Compassion of Friends Convention in uh Baltimore in July. And um, and this is the first time I will have been at a conference for the bereaved. And even though it's been, I don't know, 15, 16 years since Stevens died, you know, one of the concerns I've got, and I'll be interested in your perspective on this, is that, you know, am I gonna be, you know, put back in the undertow of grief? I'm gonna be surrounded by sad people, you know. So, you know, is this is this gonna be a downer?

SPEAKER_02 21:52

I have not found that to be true when I have been in those settings. I have found it to be the opposite. Um, to look around the room and just think this is what human resiliency looks like. This is, you know, this sense of shared humanity and compassion and not a bunch of BS. I leave hopeful, I leave wanting to live very fully, certainly some moments of lots and lots of shared tears during those moments. That also is very cathartic. So let's chat, let's chat in August and see what I would love to revisit that. Let's do that. Because all three of us would be going to a conference. So wouldn't that be interesting to reconvene in August and say, what was that like for you? You know, to sit sit with the breathe, that'd be an interesting topic on in the world.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Absolutely, absolutely. Because I think a lot of people resist, you know, going to something like this because of the intense the emotional intensity. And so uh, you know, it'll be interesting to to see how that goes.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Sure. My my own husband the other day said, you know, your mom likes to have a good time. She's doing going to a grief conference in July. Hopefully, two are surviving kids. Well, you know, each their own.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Here's the thing I like about conferences like this or being in in gatherings of other brief parents, is and Kristen and I have talked about this just in a recent episode about this mask that we put on for other people. And the thing about being in a group like this, and I and I think you may find, and again, we'll revisit in August, is the level of authenticity that's there. There's no masks. Everybody's just being themselves. And what is the mask?

SPEAKER_01 23:40

What is the mask you're referring to? How would you describe it?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

When someone's asking, so how are you? Like, I'm good. You know, and you put it on and you're going through whatever. And if someone asks that at a conference like this, it's like, you know, how are you doing? This morning was tough, but you know what? I'm feeling okay right now. You know, and be able to have that and and you get it. Everybody gets what's going on. So there's that you're speaking the same language. Like if you're in a room full of journalists, you are talking a certain language. Sure. You know, you've that like the insider term you shared with with us earlier, like, but you guys know that because that's what you what you've done, and you're very comfortable. The fil there's no filter, you're just who you are. And I think that being around other bereaved parents, and especially the when I do, you know, dad's groups and retreats, there's no filter, there's no mask. Like we just are where we are. And I believe Kristen can speak to that as well with the mom's retreats and and couples' retreats. You can just be real, and there's laughter there also. So it's not you're not walking in and your uh your entry fee is a case of tissue. No, you're just going in.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

It's a good good line. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

John, most of us we spend our lives learning through our own experiences. What's unique about your story is that you've spent much of your career listening to the experiences of others. And as a journalist, author, and storyteller, you've heard thousands of stories. Then grief became part of your own story. I'm curious how that changed the way you see people, the way you listen to people, and the way you write and even tell stories, particularly in your Lark Chadwick mystery series.

Listening Deeply With Silence

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Again, there's a lot there to unpack, but the thing that jumped out is that I'm a voraciously and relentlessly curious person, which is a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that I've got the courage to go deep with someone. And to, and when I do that, I find that people blossom in many ways. And and and more often than not, by the end of the conversation, the person has said, I've never told that to anybody before. And that's a gift. And and and that means a lot. One of the things I'm learning, however, and especially through uh David Kessler's grief uh educator class, is that there's a there's a fine line between being curious and being a voyeur, and that there's a lot of power in silence. And I teach a class in how to interview people, and it and and his comments about silence resonated because that's actually one of the techniques I teach. And that is a typical interview is question, answer, question, answer. But what I've discovered, and I've sort of learned this over the years, is that sometimes the way you get the best stuff is question, answer, question, answer, and then you leave the mic out there, and that two seconds of dead air is enough to have the person add a little bit more that's a little more in depth. I've got a detective friend who told me that he uses the same technique in uh in interrogations, and you know, question, answer, question, answer, and then silence. And he said, often the suspect will say one more thing to fill the silence. It doesn't necessarily crack the case, but it moves the investigation forward. And so I'm finding that often I can be my one own worst enemy in a conversation if I'm relentless, relentlessly asking questions instead of just shutting up and letting this and being comfortable with the silence and just and seeing where that goes.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

It's so true. We find that you know, in support groups um so often than support groups for gosh, about the last 30 years, and there's a lot of power in that. And I had to also, you know, for the first time I really ventured to allow in the silence, I had to in my mind be thinking, 1001, 1002. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Don't worry about it. And I'm thinking to myself, shut up. And and I mean, my wife is a is an introvert, and so she's been a great teacher for me, uh, because I only get about three questions with her. And then she goes, and that's all I want to say about that.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

We'll be ending that topic right now, John. That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

You know, John, you've been you spent so much of your life helping people tell stories, and and now you do this as a a workshop leader in coaching people to write to heal. Why do you think writing or telling our stories helps us heal, or does it serve a different purpose?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

I think it probably I'm still learning what it teaches us, but uh some of the things that I've discovered is that um I I've discovered the better you know yourself, the better your writing will be because you'll be coming from a place of authenticity.

Writing For Clarity And Healing

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Writing is often asking yourself questions. You know, the novelist is asking, what if? What if this kid grew up and wanted to find out more about her past? You know, that's you know one of the one of the fundamental questions that's being asked and answered in my first novel, Fast Track. Um when you're asking questions and answering them uh from a deep place, you're getting inner clarity. You're learning more about yourself. And at the same time, you're learning how to communicate that succinctly and clearly. And so I think that we are fundamentally social beings. We communicate with each other and uh we share information, we learn information. And um and writing is, I think, a fundamental way of transferring that inner knowledge, transferring that information. And so there's a lot to be said for uh writing as a way to gain inner clarity and articulate truth.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Kristen mentioned earlier about the conferences, compassionate friends, and then I'll be attending, and you'll be a keynote at bereaved parents of the USA gathering at the end of July.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

In Pittsburgh, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:48

In Pittsburgh, yeah. So let's slide into talking about fathers and grief. We we touched slightly on it, but let's let's dive a little deeper. So it's a subject that's particularly important to me because so many fathers tell us they feel unseen in their grief, and that's at least when they're being open. And many of us grew up believing our role as men were to protect, provide, solve problems, stay strong. And then child loss came and that changed everything. And it changed where there's there's things we we just can't fix.

Fathers Grief And Being Seen

SPEAKER_00 31:25

So as a grieving father yourself and as someone who's spoken, you know, to countless others, what have you learned about how men experience grief?

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Well, they experience it often in solitude. And it's interesting that men will say, I don't feel seen in my grief, and yet who knows that you're grieving, you know, unless you tell someone. So you're gonna you're gonna be invisible if you are doing your best to hide. So I think that that's part of it. And even men who are getting together to uh, you know, and maybe grief is is known, it's not really talked about. You know, it's you're just doing bro things, and maybe that to a certain extent is a comfort, but I don't know if it's necessarily dealing with it. This is one where I I don't know if I can give you a good enough answer because I still I think I'm still learning it. So ask another question.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Yeah, no, that's that's a real answer, being that's being honest and authentic. And we appreciate that. I know our listeners appreciate that. You know, you recently moderated a panel discussion on exploring men, masculinity, and grief at the International Death, Grief, and Bereavement Conference at the University of Wisconsin lacrosse. What are some key takeaways from those discussions that you could share with the dads that are listening today, or or even the others that are in their lives that maybe could help understand this journey?

SPEAKER_01 33:03

I'm still processing that. One of the things that was uh interesting, and I kind of pursued this with one of the panelists who uh, again, he's a 36-year-old uh grief counselor or uh counselor. And uh one of the things, and he talked about, he was very open in the in the group in that he experienced a mass shooting and um um and and dealt with some PTSD, uh, dealt with it in not necessarily a healthy way. And he talked about that, talked about his anger and uh and how he you know was not dealing with it well until he finally turned the corner. And and one of the things, and it's interesting, one of the things he uses in his counseling, especially with guys, is humor, sarcasm as a way to dislodge a lot of the uptightness. Because again, people go into counseling with an expectation that may not be in any way connected with reality. One of the things I've discovered in conversations that I've had is that people, especially guys, resist counseling because it's this touchy-feely stuff, and you know, this counselor is gonna tell me what to do. And that's not what effective counseling is. Usually effective counseling is helping you understand yourself. And the counselor, a good counselor, is gonna ask the kinds of questions that will get you thinking. And so he uses humor. He's he's got uh, you know, he's done stand-up comedy, improv, he's done clowning, and uh, but he said he finds that sarcasm, you know, is a great way to break the ice to help the person recognize that, oh, you know, this is just a regular guy. And so that was kind of interesting. There was another person on the panel, I'm not gonna name names, uh, uh, but you know, this person is well known internationally, has been a grief uh expert for um decades, and he share, I asked the panelists to share, if they're comfortable, with a personal experience where they navigated their own grief. And uh, and this this person who was a keynoter uh uh talked about an experience that he had as a as a young child. And I said, and what point did you come to the point where you were able to talk about this in public? And he said, three minutes ago. So we're all dealing with this kind of stuff, and uh, and I think that this was the first time that this conference has done a panel discussion, you know, most of it has been academic lectures, and there's something that happens, you know, in a in a moderated uh panel discussion where it's sort of like question-answer back and forth, where uh where you mix it up a little bit. And I uh I felt that that kind of format really helped stir the pot a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yeah, that is really goodness, and it's so good to hear. So, have you seen that men are becoming more willing to talk about their grief over the years? Or I mean, I know in this case the gentleman you spoke of is holding that since he was three or since he was very young. But are you seeing that men are a little more willing lately?

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Well, that presumes that I have you know my finger on the pulse of all male. Oh well. Sure. Yeah. Um, I'm hoping that men are becoming more open and willing to do that. Um, I was just on a podcast on you know, grief, and it was moderated by a guy. You know, the guy was in interviewing, and he said, it's it's he said it's hell for me to get any guys to come on this podcast. It's all women. And so I would like to think that guys are being more willing to be open, but I'm enough of a realist to feel that not sure we're there yet. But I think that I think that maybe, I don't know if there's a trend, but I think that there may be an openness, a more of a willingness. And I think that that will continue the more men are willing to talk about their grief. And it's possible to talk about the grief and not fall apart. Uh, I mean, we're having that conversation. I mean, I've been near tears a couple of times in our conversation, but uh it's going to happen when people see that guys can talk about it. But it means that guys have to be willing to talk about it. And that doesn't mean you have to be willing that you have to fall apart when talking about it. But if you do, that's okay too. And there are ways, you know, to kind of catch yourself. I mean, I I talk about Stephen a lot, but it's a script, you know. I'm just the facts. I'm I'm real good with just the facts. But if I get off script, if someone asks a question that goes, and you guys have been already masters at doing that, um, you know, getting me off script, and I'm on emotional glare ice. I have no idea where this is gonna go. But you know what? And this is we haven't really talked about this, but I think that this is probably the perfect time to bring this up, and that's the fear component. Because I think fear and grief go together, and that's what I'm talking about is the fear of what's life gonna be like without this person, and that's something that has been a real revelation for me because you know, we we spend all our time regretting the past or fearing the future, and we're no good in the moment. And the uh I gave a talk in in Denver

Fear, Confidence, And Going Off Script

SPEAKER_01 38:57

a couple of years ago, and it was a talk on fear, facing our fears. And of course, this was at a writer's conference. So I'm talking about, I'm not talking about grief, I'm talking about writing, because it can be terrifying to hit send when you send that query letter to the agent for the first time. And someone in the QA, someone says, What makes you what frightens you now? And and my flip answer was questions like that. Um, but I and but then I turned serious because I hadn't talked about Stephen. And I said, and I told quickly the story of having lost Stephen and my sister to suicide uh many years ago. And I said, one of the things I've discovered about grief is that if you know, once you face the worst, everything else gets put in perspective. And so stuff that used to terrify me and frighten me, not a problem anymore because I faced it. I faced the worst, gotten through it, the world didn't end. And uh now I think that there's probably looking back now, there's more confidence that I have going forward in my life than I ever had before because of that tragedy.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

This is um audio only, but we can see each other on a screen. Yeah, if if it were video, um, they could have seen my reaction to what you said, because that's yes, we're spot on. Spot on.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

How would you describe your reaction?

SPEAKER_00 40:28

It it's instant validation to what I have carried and what I hold. And and that's part of I think being in this community, and there's things that that I know I've heard dads say in in the the dads groups I facilitate that we've heard on here and parents that have shared their stories, that it's this and and uh we've used Kristen and I've used this phrase before. It's like you get it, you just get it. But I think part of saying you get it is validation. Like I'm not alone in thinking this, I'm not alone in feeling this, I'm not isolated.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Which you wouldn't, which you wouldn't realize if you weren't in conversation with someone else about this heavy issue.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Exactly. You got to participate. Right. And and so that that it goes back to where, as you were saying with the panel, where it was instead of being in an acad academic setting and more of a of a lecture, that you're pulling that back and forth. And when you engage, you're pulling the emotion as well. And as you say, you go off script, you get into your emotion. And then when people share those intimate thoughts, be it fear, joy, anger, sadness, laughter, whatever it is, you can relate. You can now we're now we're as close as touching each other and and on the shoulder and going, I get it, I do, I understand that that resonates with me. So thank you for sharing that. Sure, thank you for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

I was just struck by when we talk about the things we've learned and how we've been changed and the the things that have come from this that are good in our lives. It's it's hard to grasp that sometimes because the worst nightmare has happened, and yet I am forever changed in ways that I appreciate in myself professionally that I enjoy more than presentations and teaching, and I taught high school, and you know, giving space for an exchange of information is so rewarding to me now. And I love presentations and things, and you know, I can feel Zach's presence. I can feel him saying, of course you can do that, mom. Like what think of what you've been through and even other losses that have been very devastating, the loss of my dad, and you know, it it does it does give that perspective, you know, it does give that perspective like I can I can get through this. And I'm curious on how else has grief changed John? What's important to you, what matters, what how you define your success, what's it uncovered about you? What's it revealed? There's a great quote. Grief reveals you. What is what's re it's revealed about you?

SPEAKER_01 43:46

I think that it has in a sense reinforced what I already knew. Um and that is that there's s the I think my core motivation in life is to be able to encourage Someone. And the there's nothing more powerful that can bring that out than a grief experience, than a profound loss, because that then puts you in a position of being able to empathize, which is different than sympathize. Sympathy is that intellectual, yeah, I understand that. Empathy is an emotional understanding. And so I think that it has just intensified a connection with another person to be able to realize, you know, you don't have to scratch very deeply that to find grief and loss in everyone. And it doesn't mean the loss of a loved one, it can be the loss of a pet, a job, a relationship, your innocence, your health, you know, any number of things can bring about, you know, a sense of loss and grief. And uh and just recognizing that everybody's got it to one degree or another. And that I think is a uniting kind of uh experience.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Well, yeah, it certainly is. To have the goal of encouraging others is also a beautiful legacy, I have to tell you. Um it reminds me of I'm on your third novel and enjoying them so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

You've just encouraged me. Well, there you go. But I just I'll write another one.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

I find I find Lark everywhere, I find her mentors everywhere. I just I I find it to be, I love the way you have weaved in so many lessons about grief in a fictional novel, you know. Good.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

And I wasn't really and I wasn't writing them to, you know, to be pedantic. Writing them because I needed to write. And, you know, you go toward the pain, which I did at the time without knowing that's what I was doing. And so thank you. It's if it if it resonates, you've just made my day, ma'am.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

It certainly has. Sometimes to the detriment of spending time with anyone else in my life, I am. That's okay. That's totally okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

I'll allow it. I'll allow it.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

I'll tell them I got a permission slip directly from the author today, so that seems pretty legit. I think that I'm I'm curious a little bit even more about that. How your journey through the loss of your sister, the loss of your son, where does it show up in your your novels, your writing, your speaking at conferences or anywhere? Like where do you see what you've lived through continue to influence you? Do you want to speak to that?

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Well, I I guess I can go back to the creative process because the you know, when my sister died, I didn't go through grief counseling, but someone did suggest move toward the pain. And I had no idea what that meant. But when I started writing, that's exactly what I did. And I've and I think what what happens is that what I'm doing is I've I mean, I'm my protagonist is a 20-something young woman. I am neither. Uh and so that I think makes it easier to write about grief because uh there's a certain degree of detachment between my protagonist and me. You know, she's dealing with stuff I've never had to deal with, uh, but I can imagine. And so um I can take stuff that I've experienced and then you know, given it to her to uh to navigate. And that makes it, you know, there's a certain degree of emotional distance from that uh between us. And yet when I wrote my fourth novel, Bullet in the Chamber, that is dealing with heroin addiction. You know, the the front cover is a bullet in is a bullet in a syringe. And I woke up with the image when Stephen was missing because I knew it was not going to end well, and I knew heroin was going to be an issue. And so I wanted to convey uh the powerfulness of the heroin addiction. And I bullet in the chamber is the title of the book because I felt that if the cops could make the connection between the fatal dose and the pusher, they should charge the guy with second-degree murder, because in my opinion, it's like selling a pistol with one bullet in the chamber to someone you know is going to play Russian roulette and you don't care. I discovered in my research, though, that it's hard for the cops to make that kind of connection. And so I guess I'm I'm more willing now to be able to address those kinds of issues in my writing and in my teaching, I guess, just to encourage people to mind the pain as opposed to anesthetize it. We're good at numbing the pain, and I don't think that really solves anything.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

It kind of waits patiently till you're willing to address it. There's a great quote that says grief will knock on your door and then wait, and then someday knock down your door.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's one way of putting it. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

It's like I'll be I'll be patient. I'll I'll just wait right here. And you know, maybe grief is knocking down the door for people that become incredibly violent.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um it's complicated, very complicated. Yeah, and random, and random. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

John, let's sh let's shift into talking about hope. You know, hope can be a complicated word in grief. And for many newly bereaved parents, hope doesn't even feel possible. And and it might even feel offensive. But then over time, you know, many of us have discovered that hope doesn't mean moving on or leaving our children behind. It just means finding a way to carry both love and loss forward. After everything you've lived through, everything

Practical Hope And One Breath

SPEAKER_00 49:54

you've learned, and everything you've witnessed, what does hope mean to you today?

SPEAKER_01 50:01

I love this question, partly because I've never answered it before. I appreciate the fact that you're willing to answer ask these kinds of questions. But um, I think that before Stephen Dinah would have answered it much more superficially, probably much more religiously dogmatically. And uh, and I think now looking back, um, my answer is I mean, I do believe in hope, and I do have hope, but I can say that the hope that I have is more of it's not a long-term thing necessarily, uh, and it's not a religious thing. I mean, I do believe that there's an afterlife, but I have nothing, I have no proof. I don't, I don't even know if I have much of faith, even, but I but I do know that I can believe in hope because I've experienced it. And the the experience is just that I have the lived experience of knowing that the future can look bleak, and yet the dawn breaks, and I've seen some beautiful sunrises in the midst of my grief. And that's it's a it's a short-term hope, but it is something to look forward to because there's a lot of beauty in life, and I've experienced it, and I've experienced it while grieving. And so, you know, maybe that's not existential, you know, life everlasting, but it's it's the hope of the new day, the hope of a clean slate. You know, that's that's short-term hope, but why can't that be enough? And yet, if your uh experience, your uh spirituality allows for you know life everlasting kind of hope, great, that can be a marvelous way of sustaining going forward. But for me, hope has to be practical and um and not speculative. And so I've experienced things that make me be willing to get up the next morning.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

Wow, hope has to be practical. That is something I'm gonna hold on to because I do feel that. I just made it up.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

I just made it up.

SPEAKER_02 52:29

I think sometimes just the word hope feels a little bit lofty and a little bit like a promise for holding on to it forever, but but that it can be finding it in everyday moments and it can be practical, and it can be in your hearing now. I don't know if this resonates with both of you. The my willingness to look much past the hearing now has changed. I want to find things right now. My willingness to think, well, my someday, you know, Bruce knows I'm very much like, well, when is someday happening, Bruce? Like when is when is we're so new to doing the don't forget to breathe both podcast and now excitingly foundation that I I think before going through the tragic loss of a child, I was more willing to be like, oh well, someday people will be able to hear what we have to say, and someday we'll have lots of people that we can serve through retreats. And and my thought right now is no, I need to do this now. I need, I want this to to be impactful now. I want this to resonate with people now. So it's it's a hard growing of outreach just through our our little foundation that we're starting. And but I think what you just said is really nice to think like hope and do you have words of wisdom for us as we begin into this journey of of um outreach to others and kind of as we close today, it's just there's so many takeaways for I know both of us, but you've done so much in this world and sat with so many people and impacted so many, as Bruce and I have in in different ways, but now in this new journey of of this, you know, kind of don't forget to breathe outreach. Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

I love that this is the name of your of your podcast because uh at the beginning of COVID, my uh sister-in-law sent uh Cindy and me a book, uh Eckhart Toll Tola or Toll. Is it do you know how to pronounce it, T-O-L-L-E? I think toll. Yeah, well, I mean, whatever. Tola or toll. And the book was is is the power of now. He wrote it in 1995. It's a classic. It took me until 2020 to read it. And basically, I mean, he was suicidal and came to the realization that we spend all our time regretting the past and fearing the future and we're ineffective in the moment. And the takeaway for me is take a breath and take another breath because that's the only moment that you can control is the current moment. And it's transcendent. It is when we are in touch with the divine, with you know, our spirituality. It is it is a very powerful thing, breathing. It's life-sustaining. And so we do it reflexively, but if we do it consciously, especially when we are in pain, we realize that this moment is okay. And the next moment, the next breath is okay. You know, we have lost something very important, but we're still here, and there's a certain peace. And so as we learn to cultivate those moments, as we learn to be conscious of those breaths, there's a peace that is passing all understanding. It doesn't make sense intellectually, but it's it it is producing those moments of hope because we're we're getting through it one breath at a time. We talk about one step at a time, but it's really one breath at a time. And that I think is, you know, you're really on to something when you know you're willing to make that the focus, because I think that's the key to being able to get through this one breath at a time.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

Can't think of a better way to kind of close our time together. It's just been it's just been an absolute honor. It really has been.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

Um, it's been mutual. I mean, this is it's it's wonderful to talk with some people who understand and who ask those questions that make me think.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

John, thank you so much for spending time with us today. I mean, it's it's truly an honor for Kristen and I to have you join our podcast. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 57:05

You're welcome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

You know, as we close, I keep coming back to something John said near the end of our conversation. We spend so much time regretting the past or fearing the future that we miss the moment we're standing in. And sometimes the most important thing we can do is simply take the next breath. John, thank you for sharing Stephen with us, and thank you for your honesty, your wisdom, and your willingness to go off script and into the places that matter most. We are grateful for your time and for the work you're doing to help others tell their stories and find meaning in their own journeys. For those of you listening, if something in today's conversation resonated with you, we encourage you to sit with it. Maybe it's the idea that grief doesn't end, but we learn to carry it. Maybe it's the reminder that joy and sorrow can coexist. Or maybe it's simply the realization that hope doesn't have to be grand or distant. Hope has to be practical. Sometimes hope is just getting through the day. And if today feels especially heavy, remember this you do not have to figure out the rest of your life, you do not have to solve your grief. You do not have to know what comes next. Just take the next breath. John, thank you for being here. We're grateful for your voice, your heart, and your willingness to continue showing up for this community. And to all our listeners, wherever you find yourself on this journey, thank you for spending time with us. Until next time, take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and don't forget to breathe.