I Don't Know What To Say to a Grieving Parent (part 2) -E437

In Part 2 of I Don't Know What To Say to a Grieving Parent, Bruce Barker and Kristin Glenn continue their conversation for those supporting a bereaved parent.

This episode focuses on why positivity can feel dismissive, why grief cannot be fixed, and why presence matters more than advice, answers, or silver linings.

Bruce and Kristin talk about the difference between support and fixing, the harm of phrases like “stay positive” or “God needed another angel,” and why grieving parents need people willing to stay, listen, and remember their child over time.

They also discuss the importance of supporting grieving fathers, who are often expected to hold everything together while their own grief goes unseen.

This conversation is a compassionate guide for friends, family members, co-workers, and anyone walking beside a parent after child loss.

Transcript

Part Two And The Positivity Trap

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome to Don't Forget to Breathe. I'm Bruce Barker, here with my co-host, Kristen Glenn. This is part two of our conversation: I Don't Know What to Say to a Grieving Parent, created especially for the people walking beside a grieved parent. In part one, we talked about what to say, what not to say, and how silence, even when it comes from fear, can leave grieving parents feeling even more alone. Today, we continue that conversation by talking about something many supporters reach for because they want so badly to help, and that's positivity. Phrases like stay positive or everything will work out or you'll find joy again may be meant with love, but they can make a grieving parent feel dismissed, rushed, or pressured to appear okay. Grief is not a problem to solve. It is not something that needs to be fixed, rushed, or covered up with silver linings. What grieving parents need most is presence. They need people willing to sit in the discomfort, say their child's name, remember important days, and stay long after the first wave of support has faded. In this episode, Kristen and I talk about the difference between fixing and supporting, why small acts can become unforgettable, and why grieving fathers need to be seen and supported too. If you love a grieving parent and you are still learning how to show up, this conversation is for you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

You know, grief doesn't work that way, but it is this sense of please get better. I want you to be out of pain. I want you to be your former self. The phrase that's coined these terms is kind of almost toxic positivity comes from.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Yeah. Yeah. So supporters, stop trying to make it better because you can't.

Why Silver Linings Silence Grief

SPEAKER_00 2:15

It's not a problem to solve. It is permanent. It is with us. We learn how to navigate grief. We know it comes with us. We know joy travels side by side. So you're not going to make grief go away. It's not a problem you can solve. So don't try to make it better. Support. It's often just about witnessing the pain, not repairing it. So that's what a grieving parent needs. Support. And a lot of grieving parents, we feel isolated when people try to rush us toward a silver lining. There is no silver lining.

unknown 2:59

No.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

And that level of positivity can actually silence grief. Because the, you know, the grieving parent is going to feel at some point like this isn't a safe space. This person doesn't want to witness my grief, and I'll just put my mask back on. That hope cannot be forced. I remember doing a retreat one time and one of the things the prompt questions was, Where do you find hope? And a newly grieving mom said, I don't, and you can't make me. And I thought, absolutely, you were right. It is not anyone's job to say, okay, where's hope? Because the answer might be not yet. And it's, you know, it's back to that idea of a timeline. You're not gonna force hope or joy or, you know, for those to appear any more than you're gonna make grief disappear. All of that can feel, you know, just really dismissive. And it does make you, as a grieving parent, kind of put that person in a category of then they aren't comfortable with this. They're not com they're not comfortable. I'm gonna learn from this and not put myself in a vulnerable state with them again.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yeah, so more along that line, you know, and why positivity can feel so dismissive. Some of these statements to avoid. Stay positive. You don't need to do that. Like, why do I need to stay positive? You're dismissing the grief. Or everything will work out. Very dismissive. Or you'll find joy again. I know I will, but at the time I don't know that. We know from how far we are out in our grief that yes, we found joy again, but we also know that that did not negate the grief, that the grief didn't go away. They're just there together. And yeah, we found joy, but especially to an a parent in the early stages of grief, they're not looking for joy, they are dealing with their grief. Right. So to dismiss it and go, you're gonna find joy again. One that I've heard, not spoken to me. And this gets into a whole other whole other subject that we'll be talking about with a parent in a future episode. God needed another angel.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah. I got told that so many times. Did you? And maybe because the age of Zach, I don't know, but I was told he's sitting on God's lap and he's getting all the treats he wants. I mean, it was like a painted picture of his joy, he's in a better place. And my spirituality is mine. Right? And it wasn't preface with curiosity about what do you think about where Zach, his spirit, is or there was no curiosity from a couple folks. It was just, let me fix this by telling you that I know that God has taken this angel. And like you said, we really need to dive deeper into this with, you know, a parent that really has some unique perspectives. I'm looking forward to that episode so much.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

But how'd that statement make you feel?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

One, that they weren't curious about my journey and my spirituality and where that was. Two, that they were fixing it. The better place, even if you believe in, you know, the most joyful, perfect heaven. I think I created a really good place for him here. And I think being in his mommy or daddy's arms was a really good place. I think what what we said at the beginning of episode one addressing this, where we said, This is unfair. I need to know that you, no matter what your spirituality is, also can feel the unfairness that one moment my son was here and the one next he was not. And that's what I hear from people is like regardless of their spirituality, saying it's unfair lands. Yeah. Where these platitudes of only the good die young, God needed another angel, God only picks the best. Even with for someone that's deeply religious, that's not something that should be externally pushed.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

No, and I know we'll get into it in that in that future episode, but I grew up in faith and had a break from it when this happened. Because of phrases like this, you know, God needed another angel. Well, that just pissed me off. Yeah. Like, why'd you take it? Why did you take her?

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Why her?

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Right. So, so then that creates that, which I've seen in many, many people that I've worked with and talked with of that break because that's like this common, these common themes that are out there of God wanted this and God needed another angel. Like, and then you're like, well, then you just took this precious child and it creates a whole other issue. So please avoid that statement.

unknown 8:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

I think that, Leon, like you mentioned, that with things like that, this positivity that you're that you know, people will say is it pressures parents to comfort someone else by appearing okay. So, like you said, gotta put on the mask, gotta put it back on.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

It's not safe here.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

It's like armor up.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah. And there's a difference between support and fixing. And I can tell you from a man's perspective, in general, we are fixers,

Faith Platitudes That Backfire

SPEAKER_00 8:50

right? And I see this in men's groups that I facilitate or treats or whatever, and we address it, uh, we address it head on that this is not something that we can fix. So for those that have spouses, you're not going to fix her grief. And if you're a supporter of someone else, you're not going to fix that. So then I say a broad statement across the board, male or female, you're not going to fix anything. It's about supporting.

unknown 9:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

And so support says, this hurts. And I'm with you. Or you don't have to carry this alone. In fact, that's that's one of the themes of our of our podcast.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

You don't have to carry this alone.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Yeah, I was gonna say, I think the fixing is full of shoulds.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

You know, I think that there's you should try this, you should find this, you should go to counseling, you should, should, should, should. I used to tell people, don't let others should on you, and don't really should on yourself. I tried to pronounce it well so I didn't offend anyone, but you know, don't should on each other. Yeah. And it's interesting, the outside world does a lot of that shoulding on grieving people, but grieving people don't do it to each other too much. Because I have no idea what Bruce Barker should do to get through his journey. I'm willing to be present for whatever you need as far as support as your friend, but I have no list for you because every day I'm navigating it, trying to figure it out. I don't feel like I ever had a should list for people because it's not that kind of journey. It's not, it's not a 12-step program. It's not like uh stages. It's well, today you're faced with this. How are you gonna navigate it? Next moment, it's gonna be something different. But the what you need to do, here's how you need to move on. I think there's gentle ways to say, hey, I tried this and it it kind of didn't feel too painful. I used to feel like there's a difference between what's gonna fix it versus what doesn't hurt it. You know, it being the grief. Like, stop doing the things that hurt. You have enough hurt. Check those off your list. You don't know what specifically is gonna help, but let's start with the things that you know are making it worse. Yeah. The going to a baby shower when you're pregnant with your rainbow baby. Maybe not. Maybe not. But it's not my job to tell someone, nope, don't go to that baby shower. But it's, you know, maybe a friend's job to point out that there's a possibility that the word no can be very powerful when you're grieving.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah. And any of the groups that I facilitate, that's actually one of the rules. You know, I have a little sheet that, you know, we talk about confidentiality and what what's shared. So it's a safe space, things like that. And but one of them that I have in all of them is there is no should.

unknown 12:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

And and I'll shut someone down if that impulse, and a lot of times it's an impulse, especially, especially men. Well, you should whoa whoa whoa whoa. Nope. There's no should.

unknown 12:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

So I literally make it a hard, fast rule. So listeners who are supporters, make that your rule. Take that to heart. No shoulds. No, you need to. Just sit in that discomfort. Sit in it.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah. It requires some emotional endurance for sure.

unknown 12:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

It is a marathon.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

And those that that can't sit in discomfort, I mean, that's why supporters they often leave too soon emotionally. It's about learning to stay without answers. Because a grieving parent isn't asking you for answers. We already know there are no answers. We're doing our work. We're learning along the way as we do these journeys. So we're not looking for answers. But we need someone in that boat with us. I need somebody to help me paddle.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

You know, one of the most healing things someone can do is to stop trying to rescue us from grief. But simply be willing to enter it with us for a moment. Get in our grief for a moment. Like I say, it's one of the most healing things someone can do, and it's not easy. And it requires a lot of emotional capacity.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

And I would add, if you can give that, it is incredibly rewarding. Not that this is about getting rewards for your support, but if you can truly companion someone and have that depth of emotional capacity, you will learn things about yourself as the supporter that you never imagined. It's a brutal space, the mixed word of brutal and beautiful together. I've love that phrase that I think is Glendon Doyle. But you know, we've we've touched on the fact that just showing up, that presence matters more than any words. You can have someone that has the script of words, and you can feel that they practice this and they say it to everyone they work with, you know, whether it be a professional or someone that has been with other people that are grieving.

Fixing Versus Supporting No Shoulds

SPEAKER_01 14:40

And actually, the perfect words that are not coming from a place of genuine humility matter a lot less than just being present. We remember that that presence is what built trust. I think that can give people permission to be human, goof up, say things that later you have to give yourself grace and be like, oh, I did not mean to say that. That did not come out the way I meant for it to. But the small acts can be unforgettable. I mentioned during one of our episodes, the the mother that would continually send a card on one given day, the person that would show up for his neighbor who lost their son and just mow the lawn without asking. The right color of rose once a month on a doorstep. It is those small acts, and I think that's giving yourself permission. Like if your instincts say that it could be meaningful, go for it. You could make a big difference by just the smallest nod towards your humanity of I'm thinking about you and I I did this this act. I took a picture of the the purple pansy because I know that's what reminds you of your son, and I I saw one and I sent it to you today. Or I have a dear friend who a fox is her animal that's symbolic for her son. And so if I ever have the opportunity to send her a picture of a fox, it not only says, I remember you, but I remember this about your child that I never had the pleasure of meeting. I had someone just the other day, kind of like your text that just came in, that said, I remember that Zach loves trains. Meant so much. She never got to meet him, but she remembered this detail. And it just meant so, so much to me that she said that. And I told her how much it meant. I think it's our responsibility as grievers to also let people know what does work, that we are grateful for some things. I think we need to let people know that we notice their efforts.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Yeah. It's the presence. It's just the presence that builds the trust. And it's the small acts. Like you just said, it's the small acts. They become unforgettable. I don't remember words. I don't there's no one has said anything to me that stuck.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Same.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

But little acts, little things, little moments, that's the things that I can remember. 100%. And grief is just it's really lonely, right? And I I can speak from a place of being single when that happened. I didn't have a spouse to lean on. It's really lonely. Right? So for the supporters that we're speaking to, consistency is what matters more than any dramatic gesture. It's just those little things. Examples. Right? So examples of some what we'll call meaningful presence. Just sitting quietly without needing conversation. I think I mentioned that in a in a previous episode about that uncomfortable place. And one of the things that I for me that over time was learning to, as much as I love music, learning to turn everything off. And to start learning how to be comfortable with my own presence of just me. And maybe supporters, maybe that's something an exercise for you. If you can learn to be comfortable in the silence, just you, now you can truly be present and sit quietly with that parent that you're supporting. And you don't need to fill the space with conversation. You just need to be there because they're not looking for conversation. They're looking for companionship and comfort. They want somebody else in that canoe with them.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

That's powerful. That's a powerful suggestion that I've never thought of. That, you know, especially in this high-tech world, we're so used to input and constant noise. And for someone to practice just being still, just truly just being. We're not good at that even during comfortable times, let alone during this uncomfortable time that we want to fill with noise.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Yeah. Yeah. You know, as you've mentioned, simple text, whether that's something every week, months later, again, that's that long-term presence. And remembering birthdays, anniversaries, that's huge.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Yeah. And I think being curious about someone's journey with that, you know, I think that it's usually really welcomed. And sometimes, especially the lost date, might not be as welcome for people to receive texts. So to just say, I'm thinking of you, do you want me to reach out on this day? Or do you not want me to? I I think that's such a important thing to allow yourself to wonder about what is meaningful for you on these especially tender days. And often the day itself isn't as bad as the weeks leading up to it. So to say, I know it's the season. I know that it's turning towards summer. You can hear kids playing outside. This is the season of Christmas. I'm thinking about you. You don't have to wait only for that day, but just wow, graduation banners everywhere. I'm wondering whether this could be a time of year that is especially bittersweet for you.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

It was. You know, seeing, you know, the whole grandchild thing. Absolutely that'll never happen. Yeah. Um, but it took a it took time to come to terms with that and accept that and to be at a place where then I can support and celebrate someone else having a grandchild. That's right. Didn't happen overnight.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

And some of it, you know, about that the meaningful presence is just becoming comfortable with saying that child's name naturally in the course of a conversation. Right. No eggshells. Just again, it could be anything. So, like there was a song, I'll give you an example. So there's a connection that Kristen and I had with when Bohemian Rhapsody would come on. And I've shared that with people. So something that could happen is if you're with someone, and these and these are things that as a supporter, you probably know.

Small Acts That Parents Remember

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Right? So then the song comes on, and then for someone to say, You and Kristen had a thing for this, right? Or did Kristen love this song? So that it's such a natural thing, and not be afraid of just naturally saying that child's name.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

What a cleaner. Oh, it is.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Yeah. And I think another, as I I've made this comment about being in a canoe, and that's something I'll talk about another. The time, but you can kind of get a little bit of the visual. But walking beside someone without trying to lead them out of the grief. You're walking beside them in the grief, through the grief, with the grief, but you're not trying to lead them out of it.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Yeah. There's that great poem that says, Don't push me, I may not follow, or don't, I don't, I can't quote it quite, but just walk along me and be my friend. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so true. Like, don't don't stand behind me, don't stand in front of me. Like, just walk right next to me. Don't pull or push me through my grief. Just be next to me and we'll learn this together.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah. So this is why it's really important for supporters that are listening to this: that often a grief support, it fades way too quickly. Support, it often just disappears within a few weeks. And what grieving parents are asking for and needing is your presence long term because we're still grieving and can be grieving intensely months and years later. So if you're that supporter, you're in it for the long term, if you're willing.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

And that parent is just in autopilot. Sometimes brief parents will even be able to speak at a funeral or sing a song at a funeral. And so the supporters kind of think, oh my gosh, they're doing so quote well. But the intensity has not even begun to show itself at that time. So I think that it just is kind of the way grief ebbs and flows that in the beginning, you know, you don't really want to hear it at the time, but you really are pretty numb. And you're not in your most intense time usually. I don't want to over, you know, generalize things, but I I think there's some sense of lots of people gathered are watching you cope and be able to get through this memorial. And they think, well, maybe they don't need my support. And so people say, I guess I would put this on the list of things maybe not to say, which is let me know if you need anything. That didn't land well with me because it was like, I've never done this before. You know, in my case, I was mid-twenties. I'd never really even witnessed the loss of a pet, which by the way, should never be paired compared to child loss. That is so insulting. Absolutely. I think that I do think that for people to have comparisons of any nature along grief, but for for people to realize that that is not something that I need to to have you make rational thought around.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah, that's not even on the same planet. No. Alright, I'm gonna I'm gonna put you on the spot. You got it. As uh as we're sort of getting toward the end here, tell me three things that presence communicates to a grieving parent.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

It communicates you're not forgotten, your child mattered and is remembered. And oh my gosh, I really think it means I can hold space for this, I can tolerate your pain. That message, all of these are so important, but that to me is brave. It's courageous to lean into someone else's grief and for someone to truly say I can tolerate this because it's not my reality. I get I get reprieves from this. I go back to my regular life, and I can do this with you. That's an incredible gift.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Yeah. One thing that I'll speak to is supporting grieving fathers specifically. This was something in in our very first conversation years ago.

unknown 26:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

That you pointed out to me. And I know from being there. So those supporters out there, and and there's men, if there's men involved in your sub in supporting so dad, that men are often overlooked. So many fathers they receive less emotional support because society expects them to hold it together.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Oh my gosh. It's so sad to watch. And then it just, it's

Show Up For The Long Haul

SPEAKER_01 26:40

a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. The men are expected to do that. So thus they feel like that's their role, thus, they're supported less, and then they keep feeling like I guess I'm just the protector of others. I don't deserve to grieve. I my grief is not worthy of holding space for people are asking me how others in my life are doing instead of how I'm truly doing. You have always done such an incredibly intentional and beautiful job of seeing the male experience and the the journey of that. I think you've made such an impact on more lives than you ever imagined by the process of providing specific support to fathers grieving, because even the statement that you are there says this is worth discussing. This is as important as any grief. You are absolutely a hundred percent their parent. You deserve support that is intended only for you. And I'm all in. You've just been all in every minute. I've been honored to witness you and talk about what you've done in this grief space.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Thank you. I appreciate that. I can tell you from my experience for supporters. By following that concept of they're men, they're gonna hold it together. Is what we do and what I did is you hold it inside.

unknown 28:06

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Grief's not going anywhere. And if you're not doing any work on it, and if you're not feeling supported, it builds and it builds and it builds. And in my case, that grief, that sorrow, that loss was coming out as anger. And so we've seen that, you've seen it, I've seen it, in relationships that don't survive.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Yeah. Anger's an armor for sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Yeah. Armored up, but it's gonna come out.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

So if you're walking beside a man out there, given the same support that moms get.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Because we can't hold it together.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

No. I I don't know where I heard this quote, but it said, let's try to answer the door while grief is knocking, because someday it will knock down your door if not answered. And I feel like that anger is like, okay, you didn't hear me when I was gently knocking all those months, years, but now I'm gonna knock down the door because I'm not going away. And here I am.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

And that anger, it lands somewhere, and it's usually on someone who's innocent, or it can be if in the case of having a spouse, it can be at the spouse.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yeah, it can be upon yourself.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

You know?

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Oh, yeah. So give us kind of your closing reflection on these two episodes.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Oh gosh, I feel like we've touched on a lot. I just feel like if you're supporting a grieving parent, because that's specifically our mission, is the grieving

Don’t Overlook Grieving Fathers

SPEAKER_01 29:40

parent experience, you don't need perfect words. You don't need that wisdom. You don't need the right credentials, you don't need the answers. There's no fix. You just need a willingness to stay present and to be human.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Exactly. Thank you. You know, if you're a grieving parent listening today, maybe you've carried wounds from words people said, or maybe from silence where support should have been. And we see that, we understand that. We also know there are people who want to help. They want to love you as well, even if they're still learning how. Because we know grief does not need to be fixed, and people just simply need space to be seen inside it. So, those supporters, we hope that we've given you a little bit of a guide. Maybe not the how-to, because there's not really a how-to, but hopefully this will help you support and walk alongside that grieving parent. Thank you for joining us for part two of our conversation. We hope these two episodes have offered something practical, but also something deeply human. You do not need perfect words, you do not need answers, and you don't need to make grief better. You only need the willingness to stay present, to stop trying to fix, to stop rushing someone toward hope, to stop asking grief to become more comfortable for everyone else, and instead to sit beside the parent, remember their child, honor their pain, and keep showing up. For the grieving parents listening, we know some of you have been hurt by words that missed the mark. We also know some of you have been hurt even more by silence, by people who disappeared when you needed them most. We see that. And for the supporters listening, thank you for wanting to learn. Thank you for being willing to step closer even when it feels uncomfortable. Grief does not need to be fixed. It needs space to be seen. So until next time, be gentle with yourself, take care of each other, and please don't forget to breathe.