You Can't Fix This -E433

We live in a world wired to fix things. But grief, especially child loss, is not something that can be fixed.

In this episode, Bruce and Kristin explore the powerful shift from being a “fixer” to becoming a “witness.” Together, they unpack the instinct to ease pain, the discomfort that often causes people to pull away, and the quiet, lasting impact of simply staying present.

This conversation is for grieving parents, and also for those who love them but don’t know what to say or do. You’ll hear honest reflections on what helps, what hurts, and why consistency matters far more than perfect words.

Because in the face of unimaginable loss, you don’t need to have the answers. You just need to stay.

If you’ve ever wondered how to truly show up for someone in grief, this episode offers a path forward, one rooted in presence, honesty, and compassion.

Transcript

Welcome And Why This Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Welcome to Don't Forget to Breathe. I'm Bruce Barker, here with my co-host, Kristen Glenn. Don't Forget to Breathe is a space where grieving parents find a voice. Today's episode is also for those who love someone who's grieving and maybe don't quite know how to show up for them. So we're glad you're here, especially if this conversation feels a little uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Hey Bruce, I like this. I like this title. This uh you can't fix it, and that that's okay. I think that's uh we really are a fix-it society. So we're kind of wired that way. But this certainly is not something can be fixed.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

I agree. But yet so many people enter into this with the instinct to fix it anyway. Yeah, I'm gonna throw guys under the bus. Guys are fixers, right? So I know in the men's groups that I that, you know, dad's groups that I facilitate, there is that tendency that I think all of us have talked about. I mean, that may be elsewhere too. I'm just saying, you know, speaking for the dads, that yeah, that's our instinct is to want to do it. But it's not because we don't care, right? It's because sitting with someone this painful just feels overwhelming. Today we want to talk about what it actually means to stay present instead of trying to fix it.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Yeah, I want to touch on the fact that you're, you know, mentioning how well-intentioned that fix-it attitude is. It's not coming from a malicious space. It comes from a place of just being so uncomfortable and feeling so helpless. I'm glad that you started off with, you know, kind of that self-reflection on it being a bit gender specific. I think we all want to fix things for others, but I have found also with my work with, you know, couples, etc., that it often does tend to be a bit more male gender oriented. True. And so it's interesting to to hear you start with that and with the emphasis on the fact that it comes from a place of deep care. Can I ask you before Kristen's death, if this was your tendency when you were with people going through grief that you wanted to fix it for them before you learned the depth of your own sorrow and knew that child loss is not fixable? Was that an instinct that you had?

The Fix It Instinct

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Absolutely. I didn't have any experience with anyone who had lost a child. But when it came to family or friends, I wanted to jump in there and take over, right? I wanted to do what I could to ease the pain. I just wanted to figure out what could help, what could alleviate some grief and some sorrow. I never just sat with someone. I did. I I tried tried to fix it. And when then what I felt after losing Kristen is that people, there were some that were trying to do the fixing thing, but most of the time they either they either went away or maybe I gave off that vibe of distance. You know?

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Oh, absolutely. And I think you have such limited energy when you're in such deep sorrow that it's it's hard to show gratitude for efforts, or it's it's hard to tell people what you need, and it's tough to express what feels right and what feels doesn't feel right. So people disappear with unanswered phone calls, or if I didn't know how to answer the question, tell me what you need. I remember one time saying, I don't know what I need. I've never navigated this before. Here I am in my mid-20s, going the through truly the first death loss that I'd had. I was so young, and for it to be the loss of a child, I had no idea how to navigate this. And, you know, whether people were often offering their advice or well-meaning phrases, or they were just obviously so uncomfortable. I think child loss grief is so big and so unimaginable that it is super tough to sit with and to just realize that there's power in that.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Yeah, I mean, at the time I didn't I didn't know what I needed and I didn't know what I wanted uh early on. And so I'm sure that which is totally fine with grieving parents, that you're not supposed to act a certain way. You're not supposed to, there's no supposed to's, basically. The people that were, you know, some of the people that were around me that if they had the skills, if they knew, they would absolutely step in to just be there when I needed them and not be there when I didn't, because I didn't know. I didn't know when I needed someone, when I didn't. And so after a few months had passed, and and not a not a lot of months, a lot of those people disappeared because I think, you know, they they weren't intentionally abandoning me. They just didn't know what to do, they didn't know what to say to me. It was super uncomfortable. And I believe it was easier for them just to, you know, again, with with that well-meaning phrase of let me know what you need, and maybe thinking that was enough. That, okay, he'll reach out.

unknown 6:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

When you don't.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

No. You just don't have the energy or the knowledge of what you do need. I think I used to call the people that would just do something, the shower uppers. For, you know, I liked I really appreciated people that would just do something out of their instincts or what they think might be helpful. And it was amazing the kindness that some people showed, but it often was people that I didn't ever anticipate being in my circle, or people that I would have predicted would have been supportive weren't in my support circle. So you kind of have to learn to accept help from the sources it comes from. Yeah. I I often from people that truly and deeply cared, it felt like often what was most comfortable for them was to try to redirect my pain. They they really wanted to not only fix the pain, but to truly fix me back to my former self.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Right. Yeah. There was a point where at some point when I I laughed about something or made a joke, and someone's saying, Oh, you got your funny back. No, not really. There is no getting anything back. It's a new way of living. It's learning to live life differently. So while in my case, I was a big jokester, I just a sarcastic and dry sense of humor and make people laugh, that didn't come back in its original state. It was different. There was a little bit of sensitivity to what I was saying if I was making a joke, where before I didn't think about it, of how that how it would land. And now I did. So it changed. It was different. So there was not getting anything back, it was a new version of the old me. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 8:22

So much sense.

When People Disappear After Loss

SPEAKER_00 8:23

You know, I think that, and really the the point of this episode is to educate, I guess is the best way to say it, those who are walking with someone or those who are curious. You know, I know that you've had it mentioned to you, and uh, and some of the feedback about the podcast is those who have not had that loss felt, oh, I don't know if I belong here. Like they almost feel like, you know, like we talked about before going into a bedroom, right? Going into those bedrooms on one of the episodes that I mentioned, I felt this it was sacred ground. It was how I mean, you know, and I think that there's a little bit of sense of that of going, like, wait, this space is just for parents who've lost a child. And yet there's there's so many things that we talk about that is is really to help everyone. Like, how can you best support and not be a fixer? How can you basically instead of being a fixer, be a witness? I mean, a witness just sees, right? Yeah, witness is curious. That's what we're looking for. So that's what, especially early on, is just being there. I know that's a that's such a catchphrase of being there. So maybe holding space and being present or being a witness. Everything that we talk about in any of the other episodes is something that someone can take, but this place is for those walking alongside someone who've had that loss. This place is for you as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah, I really hope that this, you know, continues to evolve into a space that feels like everyone can gain some perspective. Yeah. Because tragically, child loss is not uncommon. I think I also said in the former um episode that it impacts one in six people that become parents in their lifetime will also experience child loss. So one in six when you look around a room full of of parents, right? And when you think of what people's worst fear are that you know that that are parents, this is this is it, this journey of outliving our children. And you know, I think that that term witness is is powerful because it is a role of staying present, of being curious, of not rushing to fill silence or to soften the hard truths that his bereaved parents were searching for. My dearest friend asked a physician how long my son suffered. How long did he know that he was in danger and he was young, but I needed to know that. And everybody else was really shushing that and saying, Don't think that way, but I had to know what his last minutes were like, and to have someone say eighteen to twenty-five seconds. I remember counting that every day, counting to eighteen, counting to twenty-five, and she didn't soften the hard truth, she just asked it so I as his mother could know what was the moments of distress and his end of of his time here. And yeah, it was uncomfortable. But she was curious about what I needed to know, and she acted on it, and it gave me some comfort, not peace, but it let me be his mother. That's what I hear from parents a lot, is like, don't take away my parenting. When our children are our children on earth, there's a lot of uncomfortable things that we have to go through. Whether they're they're very ill, or they're in trouble, or they're making bad choices, or they ask questions that we're not sure how to answer. We go through such uncomfortable times with our children, but somehow after their death, we're not allowed to ask those questions anymore that would let us have knowledge of our children, even in their death. I don't know. That just that just struck me as someone that really knew how to be witness and curious and not not soften what I was saying.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Yeah, that that brings up that brings something up for me. So I think getting to the concept of fixer and witness is so we know a fixer is trying to change the outcome. You know, you try to change something. Well, the outcome's already happened.

unknown 13:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

So you can't change it, right? Where a witness is going to accept their role, not try to change it, but they're going to stay present in it. And part of that is not turning away, right? So it reminds me of a moment I was I had gotten really ill. I was in an emergency room. This is when I was married, and they were trying to figure out what was going on. And at one point, my former mother-in-law came in, someone you definitely want to play poker with, because everything's on her face. There's no hiding it. And the thing is, she immediately turned away. Wow. Said, okay, all right, I'm gonna take off now. Then what I felt was, what is she seeing that I'm not seeing?

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Right.

Fixer Versus Witness

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Because I didn't know what was really going on, and I was like, okay, let's I'll let the professionals figure it out. But then when she turned away, then I started to wonder. Right? Where if someone is there and they just continue to look and not pretend nothing's going on, but they're there, they're looking at you, they're with you, they are present, they're witnessing whatever is going on. Because by turning away and and walking away, had she been the only person coming in, then that I would have immediately felt alone.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

And scary, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

So if she can't be with you, like how bad is this?

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Exactly. So then that sense of being alone that a grieving parent feels when someone, because they're uncomfortable, turn away, it becomes scarier. You be you feel more alone. So what we're trying to say is stay there, be that witness, be present, and know you're not the doctor, you can't fix it, but to be there, and you may never say a word, but just your presence. And you know what it feels like when you have somebody in the same room, that sense of, well, one, you're not alone. But you know, I'll I'll you know, talk about relationships, and and people have heard this, this, this phrase, you know, we can just, you know, just be in the same room or be in the car together, and we don't have to say anything. We just you feel it, right? So it's the same with this. So those that are listening that are walking beside someone, you don't have to have the right words, you don't have to find some comforting phrase. Literally, just being there. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

It sounds so simple, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 15:56

It does. But we're not taught how to do that. No one knows how to do that. When we feel uncomfortable, the first thing we do is you you get out of an uncomfortable situation. That's human nature.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yeah. I mean, it's back to the basics of fight or flight. Let's let's fight this by using platitudes or trying to fix someone. I think that's kind of fighting grief and not letting it just settle in, or you flee it. Because it you can't sit in that space. So that fight or flight. And I think to have people that just unflinchingly are just let it be. And I think what you said is so right on point. It's like the consistency over time. There's so much support in the beginning that it's often just overwhelming. There's people coming and going, there's so much food, there's so much questions, there's the memorial to take care of, and then poof, it's like, where did all those people go?

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

I used to advise people to, you know, put a calendar together and tell people, please call me in one month, two months, three months. Please check in. Because a lot of people disappear after those first, I don't know, weeks, months, and then they're not witnessing your grief and how it ebbs and flows and deepens and goes all over the place. I think so many times we're in such shock in the beginning that we look like we're doing, I don't know, quote, okay. I mean, sure. I I spoke at my son's memorial. I I felt like I was aware of people there, but was absolutely incapacitated for a year. The people that didn't give me the consistency of witnessing my grief didn't witness the reality of the foreverness of it. You know, they saw kind of a snapshot of it. And those first weeks are not the reality of the depth of the sorrow.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Yeah, the it's the long game, so to speak. It's again, there's plenty of people around early on. And, you know, again, for our listeners who are walking with someone or want to know what do I do? You simply show up. And again, it's just a phone call. You know, hey, I'm thinking about you. And not how are you doing? We've been asked that question a thousand times, and our instant default response is I'm okay. No, but ask, if you want to know some words to use, is how are you holding up? We gotta answer that. If you're asking me that question, I've got to answer it. But if you ask that question, be there for the answer and know that it might not be something that's that you're comfortable with. And that's okay. The more time that we can spend being uncomfortable, the more comfortable we get. Right? So I think it's the um it's staying there long term, continuing to check in, and it's not for everybody. I get it. But we also know, as we've talked about before, our circle gets smaller. Who can I count on? And there are some that we thought we could that we can't, and there's some that we had no idea we could that are now they're in the boat with us.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

And I think everyone can find their niche, right? We're talking really about a lot of emotional witnessing and that intense support. If you are not able to do that, know yourself.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Yeah.

Consistency And Practical Long Term Help

SPEAKER_01 19:41

And go to the grocery store weekly, feed the dog, take the dog for a walk, mow the lawn. If you really are not in a space that you can be comfortable in that, you know, kind of inner circle of witnessing the deepest part of this, that's that's okay to give yourself permission. And I would, you know, I would have people say that to me. I had had a couple that was really in the midst of trying to have a baby, and this was just so intense for them to be really with me, but they clockwork every week went to the grocery store for me. And it was before the days of you know, grocery store delivery, but they were my grocery store deliverer people, and they just put it on the front step, and we didn't really see or talk to each other because it was too intense for them, but they found something.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

You know, and I think that that's a beautiful thing to know what you're capable of. Someone else that never really spoke to me. My son died on a Wednesday, and she gave me Wednesday cards for one year on my desk at work. I could count on them. And sometimes they said very little, sometimes there'd be a note, but I just knew that she was marking that passing of time. And she remembered and she made this incredible effort. And she wasn't some someone that I would have ever anticipated giving me that kind of consistent care. It was beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah, just it's the little things.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Again, going from being a fixer to a witness. And if you're if you're just dropping off cursories or, you know, some special treat, if you're dropping off a key lime pie every week, eventually I may tell you not to, but it's gonna be a long time before I say don't. So you just never know, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Just hint, hint. But anyway, you just never know what what someone needs. And if you can't be in can't be in a place where you are you're okay being uncomfortable, you're right. Just those little things that you can do long term. Short term covered. It's long term.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Yeah, the short the intense short-term grief support somehow indicates that that's our timeline. That's the timetable. Like their support expires, and so our grief somehow expires. You know, I just it made me feel a bit that I was taking too long or I wasn't returning to some semblance of normal. I didn't really have the grief kind of mentors for a while. But then once I I met people through the local chapter of compassionate friends, it was Really eye-opening to walk into a support group and see people that were six months out, six years out, sixteen years out. And it was scary because I could see that they were still deeply impacted by this loss, but it also gave me permission to realize that this was going to be integrated into my new self forever.

Silence And Showing Up With Options

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Yeah. You know, I think another thing along this line of being uncomfortable being with someone, I think that it's also where we are right now in society, it's what I witness is we're filling our time and our space with noise. How much time do we spend on our phones scrolling? I see it like on the shuttle bus, you know, for my work, and 95% of the people on that for that 10-minute ride in that shuttle bus, they're on their phone. Yeah. And I'm like, can't you not sit with yourself for 10 minutes? And that was one of the things that I learned over time was being comfortable being with myself and being comfortable in silence. And maybe that's something that our listeners can think about is learning how to be comfortable in the silence. Because when you're sitting with someone, you don't have to have the right words. And it may be we're talking about literally sitting with someone, there can be a lot of silence when you're there, but it's such a great form of respect with your presence of just being there. You don't have to fill, feel like you have to fill the space with conversation with anything. Because sometimes that grieving parent, depending on where they are in that stage, I just need you to sit here. And it's like we've said with our, like we've done with this podcast, it's so that people feel less alone. Well, we're giving you a little a little tool so that you can help another parent feel less alone. So if you're listening and you care about somebody who's grieving, you might reflect on a few things. And I'm trying to fix something that isn't fixable. Are are you at are you saying that to yourself? Is that your is that what's going on? So are you going, am I trying to fix something that isn't fixable? Or am I willing to be present with it? And it's not comfortable. So that question alone can shift how you show up.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Yeah, along with that, you might ask also, am I avoiding someone? Because I just don't know what to say. I'm fearful of hurting them with the wrong words. That avoidance is so, so common, but it really deepens loneliness that people that are grieving already feel so isolate so isolated. So I think even the smallest gesture, a message, can just reopen a connection, being curious about what someone wants, you know, as as Bruce said, that silence versus maybe they do want to talk about something completely unrelated to the grief, or maybe they want to share the last video they took of their child. But in but instead of assuming that, just checking in and saying, I'm coming over, we've got four choices. We can watch a stupid comedy, we can watch videos of your child, I can just talk to you about everyday life, or we can just be silent together and read books parallel to each other on the couch. What seems best to you? You know, just like uh choices given.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Absolutely. You know, I'll throw one more in there. Hey, I'm gonna come over and I know you listen to Don't Forget to Breathe, this podcast. I want to sit there with you because I want to learn. I want to know how I can help you.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Oh, what it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

I'm not trying to be self-promoting with this podcast, but I'm simply saying if you know they listen to it and you're sitting with them and you're present, and look at the reaction. And if they pause it, that there's something that that that something comes up for them that resonates and they want to share that with you, that you're there to hear it and you're there to listen or offer it. Don't know.

Final Takeaway Stay Present

SPEAKER_01 27:18

I love that. Just the presence and consistency of that willingness to learn about an experience that you've never been through and certainly hope you never go through. So to to learn what this journey is like for your for your person is a gift.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Definitely. You know, so if there's one thing we hope you take from this conversation tonight, it's that you don't need to fix grief to be helpful in it. Just your presence, your consistency, and the honesty goes so much further than trying to find the perfect words or explanations because you can't fix this. And you're not supposed to. But you can stay. And that staying matters more than you realize.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

I am just so appreciative of anyone that's willing to engage in these conversations, whether it's listening to this episode, sharing it with others, because it is it's not easy. And it's it is not something that we're really taught how to navigate. So if you can companion someone during this, it will have its own gifts for you as well. Because grieving people are are among the most authentic lesson giver, wise people I've ever had the honor to be in their presence.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Yeah, if you want to be around someone who is genuine, authentic, and honest, hang out with someone who's lost a child or has had someone a death very close to them. You'll get authenticity and you'll get honesty. So whether you are grieving or you're walking beside someone who is, until next time, don't forget to breathe.